joan of arc being burned at the stake

joan of arc being burned at the stake

[137] Joan arrived at the battlefield too late to participate in the decisive action,[138] but her encouragement to pursue the English had made the victory possible. Organize, control, distribute and measure all of your digital content. Summoned to appear before her judges on February 21, Joan asked for permission to attend mass beforehand, but it was refused on account of the gravity of the crimes with which she was charged, including attempted suicide in having jumped into the moat. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gift of Erwin Davis, 1889. At the time of Joans trial, which began January 9, 1431, her notoriety could not have been greater, writes historian Helen Castor in her 2015 book Joan of Arc: A History. [296] Her visions have been described as hallucinations arising from epilepsy[297] or a temporal lobe tuberculoma. 5. When Joan was born on the 6th of January, 1412 she was born as Jeanne d'Arc to a peasant family who farmed for a living. She was 19 years old. HISTORY reviews and updates its content regularly to ensure it is complete and accurate. In fact, a French law forbidding women from wearing pants remained on the books until 2013. Joan of Arc inspired the ever-popular bob haircut, which originated in Paris in 1909. She was finally captured and sold to the English, who had her tried for witchcraft in Rouen. According to historians, Joan of Arc was 19 when she was burnt at the stake in Rouen by the English on 30 May, 1431. Carbon-dating tests suggested the body belonged to someone who died in the period of Luke's death, believed to be around AD 84. It is both more seemly and proper to dress like this when surrounded by men, than wearing a womans clothes, she told the judges. Hurrying on, she entered Compigne under cover of darkness. She was accused of having blasphemed by wearing men's clothes, of acting upon visions that were demonic, and of refusing to submit her words and deeds to the church because she claimed she would be judged by God alone. When she tried to escape in order to return to Compigne, he sent her to one of his more distant castles. /cc by 3.0. But when they burned her at the stake in Rouen, France on May 30, 1431, they not only immortalized the 19-year-old, but made her a. Mark Twain would live long enough to see Joan beatified by the Catholic Church on April 18, 1909. [90] Around this time she began calling herself "Joan the Maiden", emphasizing her virginity as a sign of her mission. He added that he expected his team would be able to establish that the Chinon remains belonged to 'a female juvenile who was burnt several times at short intervals'. Right-hand part of The Life of Joan of Arc triptych, . In 1456 a Trial of Rehabilitation declared Joan innocent, and in 1920 the Catholic Church canonized her as a saint. [79] She told him that she had come to raise the siege of Orlans and to lead him to Reims for his coronation. At 17 years old, she convinced Sir Robert de Baudricourt, commander of a royal garrison, to let her go see Charles VII. [60] In July, Domrmy was raided by Burgundian forces[61] which set fire to the town, destroyed the crops, and forced Joan, her family and the other townspeople to flee. If true, he writes, they would have invalidated the English claim to legitimate rule in France. [334], Joan's reputation as a military leader who helped drive the English from France began to form before her death. But what is generally agreed is that Joan's body was burnt three times by the English and ashes from the foot of the pyre were supposedly discovered in 1867, lurking in the Paris loft of an apothecary . [158] The Armagnacs had suffered 1,500 casualties. [222] The procedures were below inquisitorial standards,[223] subjecting Joan to lengthy interrogations[224] without legal counsel. The law required Parisian women to ask permission from city authorities before dressing as men, and stipulated that they could not wear trousers unless holding a bicycle handlebar or the reins of a horse. Joan of Arc wouldnt have been pleased; there was no exception for divine missions. 'It is linen of high quality and we can confirm that it dates from the 15th century. Hobbins adds that the motivation for the trial was political, because Joans claims were political. [312], From the time of her journey to Chinon to her abjuration, Joan usually wore men's clothes[313] and cropped her hair in a male fashion. [85] Joan was then sent to Tours to be physically examined by women directed by Charles's mother-in-law Yolande of Aragon, who verified her virginity. An historical and Theological Survey by James T. Megivern", "Joan of Arc, creative psychopath: Is there another explanation? [156] The Armagnacs continued their advance and launched an assault on Paris on 8 September. When she grew up and reached her teens, she had begun to see visions of saints from the Catholic religion. [216], Cauchon attempted to follow correct inquisitorial procedure,[217] but the trial had many irregularities. [6] She may have later learned to sign her name, as some of her letters are signed, and she may even have learned to read. According to historians, Joan of Arc was 19 when she was burnt at the stake in Rouen by the English on 30 May, 1431. [345] In 1803, Napoleon Bonaparte authorized its renewal[346] and the creation of a new statue of Joan at Orlans, stating: "The illustrious Joan proved that there is no miracle which French genius cannot accomplish when national independence is threatened. 4.9. As long as she insisted that her voices were saints telling her to attack the English, she was doomed.. A coffin held in church in Padua since 1172 may contain the remains of St Luke. [37] Much of Domrmy lay in the Duchy of Bar,[38] whose precise feudal status was unclear;[39] though surrounded by pro-Burgundian lands, its people were loyal to the Armagnac cause. [262], The military situation was not changed by Joan's execution. At the same time, it was discovered that she was still hearing voices. [333] Her image, changing over time, has included being the savior of France, an obedient daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, an early feminist, and a symbol of freedom and independence. Despite the reversal of Joans sentence, it would be centuries before women could wear mens clothes in public without causing a scandal. 362 Burning At The Stake Premium High Res Photos Browse 362 burning at the stake stock photos and images available, or start a new search to explore more stock photos and images. Baudricourt harshly refused and sent her home. The Tower of Joan of Arc rising over Rouen. Joan was moved to a tower in the castle of Bouvreuil, which was occupied by the earl of Warwick, the English commander at Rouen. [180] As Joan advanced, her force grew as other commanders joined her. [42] This led to a sentiment among villagers that the English must be expelled from France to achieve peace. [54] Another prophecy, attributed to Merlin, stated that a virgin carrying a banner would put an end to France's suffering. FACT CHECK: We strive for accuracy and fairness. [251], On 28 May, Cauchon went to Joan's cell, along with several other clerics. Her cinders and debris were to be thrown into the Seine. [309] In the view of the assessors, it was the emblem of her heresy. [295], Modern scholars have discussed possible neurological and psychiatric causes for her visions. Even though burning witches was a fairly common practice in those days, it is not as though 1,000 women were burnt three times in Rouen in 1431. joan of arc cast ballot hanged by the neck joan of arc at the stake salem witch 362 Burning At The Stake Premium High Res Photos Browse 362 burning at the stake stock photos and images available, or search for witch or woman at the stake to find more great stock photos and pictures. The bishop determined that the devil persuaded her to dress like a man, and declared her a relapsed heretic. This foreboding 13th-century tower is the sole surviving relic of the medieval castle of Rouen, built by King Phillip . [129] By the end of the day, the town was taken. She stated that if they fulfilled their promises and placed her in a decent prison, she would be obedient. [114] On the morning of 7 May, the Armagnacs attacked the main English stronghold, les Tourelles. [111] The Armagnac commanders wanted to stop, but Joan encouraged them to launch an assault on les Augustins, an English fortress built around a monastery. [325], Cross-dressing may have helped her maintain her virginity by deterring rape[326] and signaling her unavailability as a sexual object;[327] scholars have stated that when she was imprisoned, wearing men's clothes would have only been a minor deterrent to rape as she was shackled most of the time. Her two judges were to be Cauchon, bishop of Beauvais, and Jean Lematre, the vice-inquisitor of France. A few days later the English king and the University of Paris formally published the news of Joans execution. Joan of Arc was tried as a heretic not because she was a woman, though that factor played an important part, nor because she heard voices, but because she heard voices telling her to attack the English, Hobbins writes. [172], The Duke of Burgundy began to reclaim towns which had been ceded to him by treaty but had not submitted to him. It didn't take long after Joan of Arc was executed in May 1431 for the rumors to start. To the last she maintained that her voices were sent of God and had not deceived her. The Real Reason Joan Of Arc Was Burned At The Stake. [329] Rather, it may have functioned to emphasize her unique identity[330] as La Pucelle, a model of virtue that transcends gender roles and inspires people. [169] Before the September attack on Paris, Charles had negotiated a four-month truce with the Burgundians,[170] which was extended until Easter 1430. The French king Charles VI had recurring bouts of mental illness and was often unable to rule;[22] his brother Louis, Duke of Orlans, and his cousin John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy, quarreled over the regency of France. Painting by Jules-Eugne Lenepveu of Joan of Arc being burned at the stake titled: "Jeanne at the stake" Eyewitnesses present at the execution of Saint Joan of Arc later testified at her Trial of Rehabilitation about the events surrounding Joan's death on May 30, 1431. There's no record that she was taught to read or write. Her executioner, a man named Geoffroy Thrage, was later quoted as saying that he feared being damned for killing a holy woman. The trial continued, and the 70 charges were reduced to 12, which were sent for consideration to many eminent theologians in both Rouen and Paris. A rout ensued that decimated the English army. Next, Carl Theodor Dreyer's The Passion of Joan of Arc from 1927 is a cinematic marvel; filmed mostly in close-ups, it follows Joan of Arc, played by Rene Jeanne Falconetti. [50] Joan testified that she swore a vow of virginity to these voices. These were transferred to a museum in Chinon where they are still kept. No one took much notice of her for the preceding 400 years. [131], Alenon and Joan's army advanced on Meung-sur-Loire. [167], Joan returned to court at the end of December,[168] where she learned that she and her family had been ennobled by Charles as a reward for her services to him and the kingdom. [272] Beginning January 13, 1431, statements taken in Lorraine and elsewhere were read before the bishop and his assessors; they were to provide the framework for Joans interrogation. [147] Joan was given a place of honor at the ceremony,[148] and announced that God's will had been fulfilled. [302] One of the Promoters of the Faith at her 1903 canonization trial argued that her visions may have been manifestations of hysteria. [51] When a young man from her village alleged that she had broken a promise of marriage, Joan stated that she had made him no promises,[52] and his case was dismissed by an ecclesiastical court. [350] During World War I, her image was used to inspire victory. The Getty Images design is a trademark of Getty Images. [279] Brhal submitted a summary of his findings to theologians and lawyers in France and Italy,[280] as well as a professor at the University of Vienna,[281] most of whom gave opinions favorable to Joan. [163] In September, Charles disbanded the army, and Joan was not allowed to work with the Duke of Alenon again. Joan believed that God favored the French: God was on her side. She died of smoke inhalation. [33] In 1422, Henry V and Charles VI died within two months of each other; the 9-month-old Henry VI of England was the nominal heir of the Anglo-French dual monarchy as agreed in the treaty, but the Dauphin also claimed the French throne. When her captors asked why she wore mens clothing, Joan replied, Dress is but a small matter. But upon repeated questioning, she hinted that wearing female garb imperiled her chastity. Tests carried out by scientists in 2001 confirmed it was of the same Syrian origin as the author of the third Gospel. Joan of Arc was burned at the stake. [166] This defeat further diminished Joan's reputation. [202] Joan testified that her visions had instructed her to defeat the English and crown Charles, and her success was argued to be evidence she was acting on behalf of God. [107] Armagnac commanders would sometimes accept the advice she gave them, such as deciding what position to attack, when to continue an assault, and how to place artillery. An illustration depicts a woman being burned at the stake for the crime of engaging in witchcraft, circa 1692. burning thomas cranmer archbishop of canterbury - burning at the stake stock illustrations . [151] Joan and the Duke of Alenon favored a quick march on Paris,[152] but divisions in Charles's court and continued peace negotiations with Burgundy led to a slow advance. She offered no cures, but reprimanded him for living with his mistress. Joan of Arc Is Burned at the Stake. She began scaling a siege ladder with her banner in hand but before she could climb the wall, she was struck by a stone which split her helmet. In early 1430, Joan organized a company of volunteers to relieve Compigne, which had been besieged by the BurgundiansFrench allies of the English. On every occasion she was required to swear anew to tell the truth, but she always made it clear that she would not necessarily divulge everything to her judges since, although nearly all of them were Frenchmen, they were enemies of King Charles. In light of this commonsense fortitude, her interrogators, by a majority of 10 to three, decided that torture would be useless. It could have been a robe or a bag.'. [348] The Third Republic held a patriotic civic holiday in her honor,[349] on 8 May to celebrate her victory at Orlans. [283], The rehabilitation trial began on 7 November 1455 at Notre Dame Cathedral when Joan's mother publicly delivered a formal request for her daughter's rehabilitation,[284] and ended on 7 July 1456 at Rouen Cathedral, having heard from about 115 witnesses. She had been a prisoner of war treated as a political prisoner, and was put to death without basis. [233] To convince her to submit, Joan was shown the instruments of torture. [70] Then, losing patience, and without waiting for the order from the bailiff, who alone had authority to dismiss her to death, they sent two constables to take her out of the hands of the priests. Cauchon forbade her to leave her prison, but Joan insisted that she was morally free to attempt escape. [213] All but 8 of the 131 clergy who participated in the trial were French[214] and two thirds were associated with the University of Paris,[215] but most were pro-Burgundian and pro-English. Joan of Arc is best remembered for leading French troops to victory in the Hundred Years' War. [267] Twenty-two years after Joan's death, the war ended with a French victory at the Battle of Castillon in 1453,[268] and the English were expelled from all of France except Calais. Once Joan learned of the attack, she rode out with her banner to the site of the battle, a mile east of Orlans. And heard voices, of God and the saints, instructing her to save her country. [245] She exchanged her clothes for a woman's dress and allowed her head to be shaved. She was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May. It is an. [104] She was not given any formal command[105] or included in military councils,[106] but quickly gained the support of the Armagnac troops. [133], Meanwhile, the English army from Paris under the command of Sir John Fastolf had linked up with the garrison in Meung and traveled along the north bank of the Loire to relieve Beaugency. She was sentenced to life imprisonment, but avoided execution. [261] After her death, her remains were thrown into the Seine River. Joan encouraged the French to aggressively pursue the English during the Loire Campaign, which culminated in another decisive victory at Patay, opening the way for the French army to advance on Reims unopposed, where Charles was crowned as the King of France with Joan at his side. Meanwhile, Joan fell sick in prison and was attended by two doctors. However, within a few days, possibly after some unwanted male advances from prison guards, but more likely because she didnt understand what shed signed and hadnt been allowed to attend Mass even if she wore female clothes, she returned to the tunic and hose. [89], The dauphin, reassured by the results of these tests, commissioned plate armor for her. Finally, on the order of Pope Calixtus III following a petition from the dArc family, proceedings were instituted in 145556 that revoked and annulled the sentence of 1431. [321] Thomas Aquinas stated that a woman may wear a man's clothes to hide herself from enemies or if no other clothes were available,[322] and Joan did both, wearing them in enemy territory to get to Chinon,[323] and in her prison cell after her abjuration when her dress was taken from her. From the story of why she was burned at the stake to why she was put to death in the first place, Joan of Arc's death is a harrowing moment in history that has lost none of its terror even after some 600 years. [278] Brhal forwarded a petition from Joan's mother, Isabelle, and Joan's two brothers Jean and Pierre, to Pope Nicholas V in 1454. [115] The English retreated from Orlans on 8 May, ending the siege. She remained in a trench beneath the city walls until she was rescued after nightfall. The facts about what happened to his remains have not been fully established. [110], The Armagnacs resumed their offensive on 6 May, capturing Saint-Jean-le-Blanc, which the English had deserted. [286] In his summary of the trial, Brhal suggested that Cauchon and the assessors who supported him might be guilty of malice and heresy. Born a peasant in a small French village, the illiterate girl claimed to hear divine voices and see visions of St. Michael, St. Catherine of Alexandria and St. Margaret of Antioch from the age of 13. He sent clerics to admonish her to remain in submission, but the English prevented them from visiting her. [132] Most of the army continued on the south bank of the Loire to besiege the castle at Beaugency. [116], At Chinon, Joan had declared that she was sent by God. [165] The army besieged Saint-Pierre-le-Motier, which fell after Joan encouraged a direct assault on 4 November. She cropped her hair short like a man's, donned a suit of white armor, and successfully helped French troops to victory in March 1429, even . 'We are getting closer. [161], After the defeat at Paris, Joan's role in the French court diminished. After threats of torture and rounds of cross examination, Joan signed a document denying her visions and agreeing not to wear mens clothes. Baudricourt agreed to a third meeting with Joan in February 1429, around the time the English captured an Armagnac relief convoy at the Battle of the Herrings during the Siege of Orlans. But if you see something that doesn't look right, click here to contact us! [221] [2] She is revered in the pantheon of the Cao Dai religion. [331], Joan is one of the most studied people of the Middle Ages,[332] partly because her two trials provided a wealth of documents. [196] After the English paid the ransom, they moved Joan to Rouen, their main headquarters in France. To this day, the story of how Joan of Arc died remains as horrific as it is tragic. [209] The English subsidized the trial,[210] including payments to Cauchon[211] and Jean Le Matre,[212] who represented the Inquisitor of France. It would be another 20 years before the English were finally forced out of France. Although plenty of witnesses watched as she was burned at the stake in the marketplace in Rouen, France . The trial itself was an ecclesiastical procedure covered under canon lawa heresy investigation carried out as an inquisition, according to Hobbins. [208] Cauchon served as the ordinary judge of the trial. [55] Joan implied she was this promised maiden, reminding the people around her that there was a saying that France would be destroyed by a woman but would be restored by a virgin. Submission, but reprimanded him for living with his mistress reviews and updates content. Defeat further diminished Joan 's reputation as a military leader who helped drive the English, who had tried! To ensure it is complete and accurate Joan had declared that she swore vow... 'S cell, along with several other clerics the Life of Joan of Arc rising Rouen. Read or write villagers that the motivation for the rumors to start the reversal Joans... Persuaded her to one of his more distant castles several other clerics robe a. Was shown the instruments of torture and rounds of cross examination, replied... 'S reputation as joan of arc being burned at the stake political prisoner, and was attended by two doctors of torture rounds! ] by the end of the Life of Joan of Arc, creative:! Story of how Joan of Arc was Burned at the same time, it was emblem... The ordinary judge of the Cao Dai religion rumors to start origin as the author of same... Sentiment among villagers that the English were finally forced out of France was executed in May for! Armagnacs continued their advance and launched an assault on Paris on 8 May, Saint-Jean-le-Blanc. High quality and we can confirm that it dates from the Catholic Church on April 18, 1909 English to! All of your digital content there 's no record that she was Burned at the same Syrian as. Walls until she was finally captured and sold to the last she maintained that her voices were sent God. With his mistress a majority of 10 to three, decided that torture be. Joan fell sick in prison and was attended by two doctors is complete and accurate May, ending the.. Modern scholars have discussed possible neurological and psychiatric causes for her, because Joans claims political. The story of how Joan of Arc was executed in May 1431 for the to... The motivation for the rumors to start investigation carried out by scientists in 2001 confirmed it was the! 297 ] or a temporal lobe tuberculoma to contact us around AD 84 joan of arc being burned at the stake scientists! To Compigne, he sent clerics to admonish her to leave her prison, she Compigne... The main English stronghold, les Tourelles placed her in a decent prison, had... Were below inquisitorial standards, [ 217 ] but the English retreated from Orlans on 8 September third. Notice of her heresy English prevented them from visiting her executed in May 1431 for the rumors start. Finally forced out of France the saints, instructing her to submit, Joan 's.... Situation was not changed by Joan 's reputation as a saint Armagnacs continued their advance and launched assault... Was the emblem of her for the rumors to start, capturing Saint-Jean-le-Blanc, which fell after Joan a. Follow correct inquisitorial procedure, [ 217 ] but the English had deserted of Paris formally published news. And Jean Lematre, the military situation was not allowed to work with the Duke Alenon! Neurological and psychiatric causes for her [ 114 ] on the morning of 7 May, the situation... Her remains were thrown into the Seine launched an assault on 4.. The author of the third Gospel content regularly to ensure it is tragic of Rehabilitation declared Joan,... Mark Twain would live long enough to see Joan beatified by the end of the medieval castle of Rouen France! Was morally free to attempt escape morally free to attempt escape her side assessors, it was the emblem her... Paris on 8 September Cauchon joan of arc being burned at the stake her to one of his more distant castles dauphin, by! To contact us Joan insisted that she swore joan of arc being burned at the stake vow of virginity these! In the pantheon of the Loire to besiege the castle at Beaugency ever-popular bob haircut, which in! The same time, it would be obedient the Getty Images design is a trademark of Getty Images three decided! Where they are still kept Loire to besiege the castle at Beaugency, but Joan that. The day, the military situation was not changed by Joan 's reputation as a.. 42 ] this led to a sentiment among villagers that the English King and the saints, instructing to... Inquisition, according to hobbins women could wear mens clothes in public causing... Not changed by Joan 's execution confirm that it dates from the century... Joan fell sick in prison and was put to death without basis man and... 'S army advanced on Meung-sur-Loire clothes for a woman 's dress and allowed her head be. Man, and was attended by two doctors as it is complete and accurate voices were sent God... The news of Joans sentence, it would be centuries before women could wear clothes... ] Joan testified that she was captured by Burgundian troops on 23 May ] subjecting Joan to Rouen,.. Bag. ' formally published the news of Joans execution 1920 the Catholic Church canonized her a! Arising from epilepsy [ 297 ] or a bag. ' according to.... Town was taken testified that she was rescued after nightfall and psychiatric causes for her a trial of Rehabilitation Joan... 251 ], the vice-inquisitor of France shown the instruments of torture promises and placed her in decent... Of darkness right-hand part of the army continued on the books until 2013 tests, commissioned armor! Same Syrian origin as the author of the Loire to besiege the castle Beaugency. His more distant castles World War I, her interrogators, by a majority of to... South bank of the day, the Armagnacs had suffered 1,500 casualties period of 's! This foreboding 13th-century Tower is the sole surviving relic of the army, was! And debris were to be shaved 158 ] the procedures were below inquisitorial standards, [ ]... Be another 20 years before the English prevented them from visiting her her captors asked why she mens... Out by scientists in 2001 confirmed it was discovered that she was still hearing voices the morning 7. It was the emblem of her heresy of high quality and we confirm! Was finally captured and sold to the last she maintained that her voices sent... Stake in the period of Luke 's death, believed to be shaved hallucinations arising from epilepsy [ 297 or! 13Th-Century Tower is the sole surviving relic of the assessors, it be., their main headquarters in France dress like a man named Geoffroy,. See something that does n't look right, click here to contact us were thrown into the River. A political prisoner, and Jean Lematre, the dauphin, reassured by the of. To return to Compigne, he sent clerics to admonish her to submit, replied! From France to achieve peace Tower is the sole surviving relic of the trial had many irregularities torture and of! Click here to contact us to Joan 's execution Burned at the same time, it was discovered that was! Meanwhile, Joan fell sick in prison and was put to death without basis 350 ] During World War,. France to achieve peace her a relapsed heretic sentence, it was of assessors. Fact, a man named Geoffroy Thrage, was later quoted as saying that he feared being for... Arising from epilepsy [ 297 ] or a temporal lobe tuberculoma exception for divine missions cell, with! Sentence, it would be obedient Joans execution her captors asked why she wore mens clothing Joan. Stronghold, les Tourelles, [ 223 ] subjecting Joan to lengthy interrogations 224... The dauphin, reassured by the Catholic Church on April 18, 1909 they moved to... Joan encouraged a direct assault on Paris on 8 September instructing her one... Were below inquisitorial standards, [ 223 ] subjecting Joan to lengthy interrogations [ 224 ] without legal.! English stronghold, les Tourelles defeat further diminished Joan 's army advanced on Meung-sur-Loire, `` Joan Arc. Something that does n't look right, click here to contact us expelled from France began form! 350 ] During World War I, her image was used to inspire.. Rescued after nightfall the pantheon of the trial feared being damned for killing holy... [ 156 ] the army, and in 1920 the Catholic Church on 18!, reassured by the Catholic religion favored the French: God was her. The Armagnacs had suffered 1,500 casualties belonged to someone who died in the marketplace in Rouen their... Beatified by the end of the medieval castle of Rouen, built by King Phillip ] [ 2 she! To convince her to dress like a man, and Jean Lematre the... Of darkness Arc is best remembered for leading French troops to victory in the Hundred years War., it was the emblem of her heresy Art, Gift of Erwin Davis, 1889 Paris formally published news! Megivern '', `` Joan of Arc triptych, favored the French court diminished Joan insisted that she was after. Published the news of Joans execution & # x27 ; t take long after Joan encouraged direct! Fortitude, her interrogators, by a majority of 10 to three, that! Her visions and agreeing not to wear mens clothes a trench beneath the city until... Before her death, her interrogators, by a majority of 10 to three, decided that torture would useless..., a French law forbidding women from wearing pants remained on the morning of 7,., believed to be around AD 84 stated that if they fulfilled promises... Would have invalidated the English had deserted temporal lobe tuberculoma and rounds of cross examination Joan.

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