Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. Thanks for the super chat. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? Abraham believed God, and it was credited or imputed to him as righteousness so that he might be the father of all who believed that righteousness might be credited or imputed to them.. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. 17. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. I think a lot of people have this question, both Catholics and Protestants. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . Yeah. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. Thank you very much, Steve. Okay. Sep 29, 2021. Well start with you, Steve. Trent, did you want to-. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. This is hard, isnt it? Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. An interview with Steve Baughman. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. Im running out of time. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Enough Jews were reading the deuterocanonical books that a leading rabbi at the time had to declare that they were not Scripture. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Yeah. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. . But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. Yeah. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. This sure is fun, isnt it? I only have to prove there is no contradiction. Well, of course not. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. Thank you very much, Trent. I was wrong there. We use Christian Apologetics to discuss, interview, & debate for God's existence, & Christianity. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. He says, this is a question for Steve. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. . As far as Revelation chapter one to six, I dont see anything thats in there that talks about Mary. By: Rochester Business Journal Staff By Scott Pitoniak May 19, 2017. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. She would have to have a heavenly body. He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. Okay. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. It talks about the universality of sin, like in Romans 3:23, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul is talking about the universality of personal sin between Jews and non-Jews. 0. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. Well, right. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. And itll be really quick. So again, argument by exception. Okay. And Ill leave it at that. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? Hofstra University, +1 more. Trent mentioned about dying once. So lets take a look at them. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. Book now for free with CMG Booking. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. Yeah. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. So Ive got two more questions here. Landlord. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. Christie, 47, played for the Bills from 1992 to 2000. Probably not like any other piece of wood. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. Thank you very much, Steve. I was citing Baukham on that point, and [Greek 00:52:31] is just not used in the New Testament, so its just not a common word. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. on Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. This is really great. Good, because you know what? And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Now Steve has said, Well, they were assumed into heaven alive and if Mary died, she would not be assumed into heaven. But thats not the case. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. Okay. On March 5, 2008 Christie retired from professional football. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. Sure. Okay, I get that. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. But let me get to that point about death though. Catholic answers the firms that while Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin, yet she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam, such as death. This means not only was she conceived sinless, but remained sinless her entire life. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. Really enjoying this. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. No, it doesnt. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Hallow.com/mattfred. I dont think he could do that. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. Give me a second here. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. Okay. Yeah. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. Now someone pointed out in the chat that only, what is it, 65% of people have submitted to my legality. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. The point I want to raise there is that adelphi has the same semantic range as adelphos. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. I dont know if I would. A Real Ale Loving Scottish Crime Writer. So we have to read the context. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL Should we baptize babies or not? Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. I addressed this a little bit during the debates of the specific Greek word [inaudible 01:21:19], which is translate full of grace or highly favored, even Jimmy Akin from Catholic answers that. Thats all I wanted to say. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. So my quick mini rebuttal. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. He claims this shows Jesus believed the Old Testament was confined to Genesis (or Abel) and 2 Chronicles (or Zechariah). Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. Okay. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Free from sin, like in Romans 3:23, all have sinned and fall short of the church they for... 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